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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:33 am 
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In prepping the first 1984 rock show for Zappateers I was a bit surprised to find FZ calls a couple members of the band his friends. If I recall right Ray White and Napoleon.


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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:36 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
. He thought the band with Mark and Howard was quite fun, until Mark and Howie started slagging him off in the press in 1972.


Mark and Howie have shown they are not always the consummate professionals. I for one am thankful, that the composer's work speaks for itself. Now some bands do go out and play the composers music. When they get it done right, that speaks. Unfortunately some musicians just can not deliver.

When Flo & Eddie were guests with ZPZ at Bearsville, simply put, Flo & Eddie did not show up prepared. Surely they had many fine moments when touring with FZ, and but also, I found the live Flo & Eddie shows I had seen in the 70s, 80s and 90s extremely entertaining, but it was quite misleading. Their poor performance speaks for itself. I don't feel the need to say any more, but the score of 200 Motels is quite informative.

"Howard Kayland... who will never, ever, deliver the closing benediction".

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:41 am 
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[quote="Ed Organus Maximus"
On the other hand, maybe he did have a particular sympathy for certain other members of his band. He thought the band with Mark and Howard was quite fun, until Mark and Howie started slagging him off in the press in 1972. [/quote]

Damn man, never heard that. I'll have to look it up. Any reasons or was it because he was a dictator? They seem like fun guys but never super professional. I can't imagine Frank would have stayed with them for another year or so. I'm almost glad he got pushed off stage becaus as he was recovering something happened, he became a compositional titan.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:48 am 
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dlokazip wrote:
DC Boogie wrote:


Adrian was right. That was on him.

Whether Dweezil's request was reasonable or not is irrelevant. Adrian let Andre walk into a buzzsaw. That was cowardly of him.

Had he said something, Andre would have reacted accordingly and Ade would have had to deal with that, but, chances are, the performance would have went off without a hitch and the altercation would have been avoided.

Oh, well. The road not taken.


I guess I'd interpret it differently. Dweezil's request wasn't nice but I don't think Andre needed anyone to explain that making a spectacle of himself during ZPZ's set was likely to lead to trouble. And c'mon, both of you, Adrian's not so young anymore and tours are stressful enough without having guys put you in the middle of their fight.


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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:56 am 
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I get the feeling that financially the ZFT has never been doing well so they will sue every chance they can to get some extra cash.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:14 am 
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pbuzby wrote:
dlokazip wrote:
DC Boogie wrote:


Adrian was right. That was on him.

Whether Dweezil's request was reasonable or not is irrelevant. Adrian let Andre walk into a buzzsaw. That was cowardly of him.

Had he said something, Andre would have reacted accordingly and Ade would have had to deal with that, but, chances are, the performance would have went off without a hitch and the altercation would have been avoided.

Oh, well. The road not taken.


I guess I'd interpret it differently. Dweezil's request wasn't nice but I don't think Andre needed anyone to explain that making a spectacle of himself during ZPZ's set was likely to lead to trouble. And c'mon, both of you, Adrian's not so young anymore and tours are stressful enough without having guys put you in the middle of their fight.


But, do we know that Andre made a spectacle of himself and, even if he did, did he see it that way? Obviously, Dweezil thought that he did, but Andre didn't think he did anything wrong. I wasn't there. I don't know.

It wouldn't have put Adrian in the middle of the fight. Dweezil tried to be civil about the request. All Adrian had to do was pass that on to Andre. Andre may have cussed up a storm, but should have told Adrian that he wasn't mad at him and could understand why it would be cool for him to play with ZPZ. Adrian didn't give him that chance.

I'm sure that Dweezil and Andre have different ideas about what is reasonable behavior. Judging by Andre's account, it seems that he tried to feel out the situation, figured everything was cool, did what he did, and got taken down because he was supposed to know something that he didn't.

Nobody asked Adrian to enforce anything. Dweezil asked Adrian to pass on information. Once he did, it would have been out of his hands. But, he didn't. He has some culpability.


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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:20 am 
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Andre is fucking stupid should have taken the fucking hint by then. NOT WANTED.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:52 am 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
Damn man, never heard that. I'll have to look it up. Any reasons or was it because he was a dictator? They seem like fun guys but never super professional. I can't imagine Frank would have stayed with them for another year or so. I'm almost glad he got pushed off stage becaus as he was recovering something happened, he became a compositional titan.


I have no information other than certain FZ interviews from the Wazoo period.

http://www.afka.net/Articles/1972-11_Rock.htm
http://www.afka.net/Articles/1972-09_NME.htm

He does say in the last link that he thought at one time that Mark and Howie were his friends.

I'd like to think the more horn-based music was about to come in 1972 anyway. He did express a desire to add horns again to the MOI plus he wanted to make Hot Rats 2. Which was what was done with Waka/Jawaka.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:55 am 
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jaypfunk wrote:
Andre is fucking stupid should have taken the fucking hint by then. NOT WANTED.


I like to think that there's Andre's side, there is ZFT's side and then there is the cold hard truth. It's easy to glean Andre's side and some people will be convinced. It's also easy to glean Dweezil's side and some people would side with him. But it's the cold hard truth that is more difficult to find out. Who is to say Andre is less honest than Dweezil, and vice versa and why should I believe any side over another?

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:01 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
NuclearProstate wrote:
Damn man, never heard that. I'll have to look it up. Any reasons or was it because he was a dictator? They seem like fun guys but never super professional. I can't imagine Frank would have stayed with them for another year or so. I'm almost glad he got pushed off stage becaus as he was recovering something happened, he became a compositional titan.


I have no information other than certain FZ interviews from the Wazoo period.

http://www.afka.net/Articles/1972-11_Rock.htm
http://www.afka.net/Articles/1972-09_NME.htm

He does say in the last link that he thought at one time that Mark and Howie were his friends.

I'd like to think the more horn-based music was about to come in 1972 anyway. He did express a desire to add horns again to the MOI plus he wanted to make Hot Rats 2. Which was what was done with Waka/Jawaka.


If I recall their Society Pages interview right either F or E said they told someone that FZ had not been pushed, but had jumped into the orchestra pit, an odd example of humor in my opinion, and that not surprisingly FZ wasn't happy about this. Relations healed to the point where F&E almost joined the 88 band.

I'd bet FZ was looking for an excuse to move on by 1972.


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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:02 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
jaypfunk wrote:
Andre is fucking stupid should have taken the fucking hint by then. NOT WANTED.


I like to think that there's Andre's side, there is ZFT's side and then there is the cold hard truth. It's easy to glean Andre's side and some people will be convinced. It's also easy to glean Dweezil's side and some people would side with him. But it's the cold hard truth that is more difficult to find out. Who is to say Andre is less honest than Dweezil, and vice versa and why should I believe any side over another?


Entirely my point. I have only met Dweezil briefly (he was nice) and I've never met Andre. I can't really vouch for either one.


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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:54 am 
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Both seem like okay guys most of the time from what I know of them. Neither was at his best on this occasion.


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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:22 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
jaypfunk wrote:
Andre is fucking stupid should have taken the fucking hint by then. NOT WANTED.


I like to think that there's Andre's side, there is ZFT's side and then there is the cold hard truth. It's easy to glean Andre's side and some people will be convinced. It's also easy to glean Dweezil's side and some people would side with him. But it's the cold hard truth that is more difficult to find out. Who is to say Andre is less honest than Dweezil, and vice versa and why should I believe any side over another?


There is no "Andre's side" in this case. It has nothing to do with being honest. He had been asked to back off multiple times by the family of Frank Zappa. He didn't comply. Pretty fucking arrogant.

Most people are smart enough to step the fuck off when being asked something like that.

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Last edited by jaypfunk on Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:23 am 
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If you are kicked out of somewhere do you keep going back over and over? NO! You're not welcome... get over it.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:28 am 
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JPF makes a good point. He was warned, what does he expect? I think Dweezil could have handed the situation better, I get the feeling he likes to act super cool and doesn't make mistakes or be an ass. Belew should have kept Andre under control seeing he was working for him.

And Ed, thankyou for the links, very very helpful. I heard they were closing to being on the 88 tour but wanted more money. Listened to a phone call between FZ and Flo and Eddie from 89 and they seemed like good friends, lots of in jokes and banter.

Here's the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPyIX-CzzUc

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:42 am 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
JPF makes a good point. He was warned, what does he expect? I think Dweezil could have handed the situation better, I get the feeling he likes to act super cool and doesn't make mistakes or be an ass. Belew should have kept Andre under control seeing he was working for him.

And Ed, thankyou for the links, very very helpful. I heard they were closing to being on the 88 tour but wanted more money. Listened to a phone call between FZ and Flo and Eddie from 89 and they seemed like good friends, lots of in jokes and banter.

Here's the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPyIX-CzzUc


NO. Andre should have known by then, after being told time and time again he was not welcome, to stay the fuck away from anything ZFT related especially going on stage and touching shit. That's is just fucking DUMB!!

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:23 am 
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Yeah I suppose he was out looking for trouble and to make a name for himself. I get the feeling because he plays with Zappa alumni he thinks he is included in Zappa's world. He is delusional.

Quote:
I'm extremely disappointed in their behavior, because there was a time when I thought they were my friends.


One of the most heart breaking and human things Zappa ever said. He was talking about Flo and Eddie.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:37 am 
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Andre doesn't come off squeaky clean, but I can't agree with calling him arrogant. He's about as nice a person as I've ever met. He wanted to do right by others and wanted others to do right by him. Any more than that and its drama. Lots of drama.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:43 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Andre doesn't come off squeaky clean, but I can't agree with calling him arrogant. He's about as nice a person as I've ever met. He wanted to do right by others and wanted others to do right by him. Any more than that and its drama. Lots of drama.


How about doing right by respecting someones request of STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING and GO AWAY?

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:02 am 
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They've both been nice to me in person but that's because I have sizable assets. There's only one of the three write-ups that is vile, and that's what makes me side. You Are What You Blog. Or Why Some People Really Shouldn't Write.

Thanks for that quote, Nuclear Prostate. I often wonder what it must've been like to work under FZ.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:30 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Andre doesn't come off squeaky clean, but I can't agree with calling him arrogant. He's about as nice a person as I've ever met. He wanted to do right by others and wanted others to do right by him. Any more than that and its drama. Lots of drama.


Andre could be the nicest guy in the world for all I care or know. I never met him. BUT nice or not it still doesn't excuse his DUMB behavior.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:41 am 
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I don't care if Andre's stupid or not. All I see is that Andre has his position: namely that ZFT has been harassing him. Whereas Dweeze has an entirely different side: that Andre is a trouble-maker and a leech that insults FZ' legacy. The ugly truth may very well be that the ZFT has certain expectations for people who try to play FZ' music and somehow, P/O failed to match up to them. Why things turned as ugly as they did, why did Dweezil come to hate Andre and why Andre says the things he has said about the ZFT, the definitive truth about that remains locked up in both person's consciences.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:42 am 
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I do appreciate some of you trying to remain objective in the face of what is a confusing and polarising conflict. It requires more mental composure than outright vilification of any side.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:45 pm 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
I don't care if Andre's stupid or not. All I see is that Andre has his position: namely that ZFT has been harassing him. Whereas Dweeze has an entirely different side: that Andre is a trouble-maker and a leech that insults FZ' legacy. The ugly truth may very well be that the ZFT has certain expectations for people who try to play FZ' music and somehow, P/O failed to match up to them. Why things turned as ugly as they did, why did Dweezil come to hate Andre and why Andre says the things he has said about the ZFT, the definitive truth about that remains locked up in both person's consciences.


ZFT is not harassing him. They asked HIM to back off and he did not comply. HE is the one harassing them. You dumb mother fucker you.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:46 pm 
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and furthermore... the reason i SIDE with the ZFT on this issue all along is because they own the fucking music and the rights to it. it's really pretty simple. Andre wanted soooooo badly to be part of it and he was rejected. GET OVER IT DUDE! end of fucking story.

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