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 Post subject: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:33 am 
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DEBATE GRADING RUBRIC

http://www.csun.edu/~ds56723/phil338/hout338rubric.htm


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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:10 am 
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I promise to reply to Disco Boy's comments on liberalism, socialism and conservatism real soon - but only here.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:30 am 
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I'm from the south midlands. So am I from up north in any way? :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:52 pm 
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I'm from Cambridge, so yes. If I was from Newcastle, no. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:25 am 
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http://fallacyfiles.org/taxonomy.html

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:42 am 
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So, my dear Disco Boy, to your contention that conservative parties that are centre-right contain liberal elements that make them partly socialist.

One of the major points I have been making repeatedly is that the term "Liberal" is ambiguous i.e. that one does not know whether the Conservative, centre right party referred to is socially liberal or economically liberal. This is a proposition that you seemed to be prepared to accept.
At the heart of this ambiguity is also the different usage of the word "liberal" in Europe and the United States.
Here is Ron Paul, for instance, using the word "liberal" to describe Rick Santorum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zz4Z93Zi1A

Now, here he claims that Santorum is a liberal because he advocates state interventionist policies.

This is not the way Europeans use the word "liberal" at all. Either it is used to denote parties that support freedom of speech and opinion, civil rights etc. (social liberalism) - an example here would be the Liberal Democrats in the UK, who were elected on that basis.
Or it is used to refer to economic liberalism; free trade, laissez faire economic policies that are based on the ideas of Manchester Liberalism and the thoughts of those economists you admire the most, like Hayek and Friedman. An example here would be the FPÖ in Austria who are, as regards social questions, on the extreme right, but support laissez faire economic policies. Another example is the Conservative Party in the UK.

As the Encyclopedia Britannica points out:
"In the United States, liberalism is associated with the welfare-state policies of the New Deal program of the Democratic administration of Pres. Franklin D. Roosevelt, whereas in Europe it is more commonly associated with a commitment to limited government and laissez-faire economic policies."
(Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism)

Thus when these conservative, centre right parties in Europe are described, one can generally assume that the liberalism they propound is of an economic nature and thus closer to the economic weltanschauung of e.g. Ron Paul than anything else. Their concept of liberalism can be compared to the American concept of Fiscal Conservatism and thus I would argue that there is no socialism in their liberalism.

To sum up: we are talking about European Conservative Centre Right parties here; the definition of "liberal" here is in an economic sense and thus their liberalism tends to push them to the right, rather than to the left.

You say that you never referred to the UK Conservative Party as socialists. It was my understanding, not that you called them socialists, but that you were attempting to indicate that they were partly socialist by...

a) Using them in the list of Conservative, centre right parties you linked to from Wikipedia, who you claimed were a...
Disco Boy wrote:
mix-mash of socialist/liberal/conservative beliefs/policies...


b) Stating about the governments of Europe
Disco Boy wrote:
It would be more along the lines of 31 (centre-right = socialist or liberal / conservative) / 1 (far right conservative).



As to your point that my description of the German political scene is a red herring, I beg to differ. The point I am making here is that what is left, centre and right and thus communist, socialist, social liberal, conservative, economic liberal and fascist depends very much on the context i.e. the country and political system we are talking about. The CSU doesn't appeal to people who would vote socialist - there are are at least 5 parties who are to the left of them. So therefore there are few socialist elements in their manifesto, if not none at all. Therefore the number and strength of the various parties in each individual countries is also a determining factor of where the "centre" lies.
In the UK there are only three really major parties that do not represent solely regional interests. Here I would put the Labour party in the centre and slightly to the left and the Conservatives to the (centre) right. It is difficult to put the Liberal Democrats anywhere at the moment as they appear to be only serving the interests of the Conservative party. The political spectrum, as a whole in the UK has thus shifted to the right and the "centre" with it.

Lastly, the parties listed on the link you gave all refer to themselves as "Conservatives". What none of them do is refer to themselves as socialists.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:46 pm 
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Self-Described Manipulative Shithead wrote:
I promise to reply to Disco Boy's comments on liberalism, socialism and conservatism real soon - but only here.


Why bother? I'll just up OWNING you, as usual...

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:00 pm 
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The Artist Formerly Known as Josh wrote:
Self-Described Manipulative Shithead wrote:
I promise to reply to Disco Boy's comments on liberalism, socialism and conservatism real soon - but only here.


Why bother? I'll just up OWNING you, as usual...


Really? What a very good rebuttal, I must admit that thought had never crossed my mind.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Self-Described Manipulative Shithead wrote:
The Artist Formerly Known as Josh wrote:
Self-Described Manipulative Shithead wrote:
I promise to reply to Disco Boy's comments on liberalism, socialism and conservatism real soon - but only here.


Why bother? I'll just up OWNING you, as usual...


Really? What a very good rebuttal, I must admit that thought had never crossed my mind.


Really. And it's not a rebuttal. It's a FACT.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:40 am 
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Twin Towers wrote:

Why bother? I'll just up OWNING you, as usual...


Caputh wrote:
Really? What a very good rebuttal, I must admit that thought had never crossed my mind.


The Hindenburg LZ 129 wrote:
Really. And it's not a rebuttal. It's a FACT.


I'm sure the (extremely silent) majority agree with you...

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:46 am 
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So what side do I choose, well-founded arguments or blowhard refusal to engage in a serious discussion, while maintaining that reasoning = manipulation? Gee, it's really hard... NOT.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:47 am 
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DB: Disqualifies self = LOSER
CAPUTH: WINNER by default


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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:22 am 
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Disco Boy wrote:
I'll just up OWNING you, as usual...

Now THAT topic should be up for debate.


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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:53 am 
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The Costa Concordia wrote:
I'll just up OWNING you, as usual...


What is "up OWNING" anyway?

Does he mean "end up owning" me?

In any case, I thought slavery had been abolished. Apparently it's still alive and kicking in his neck of the woods...

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:30 pm 
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Caputh wrote:
The Costa Concordia wrote:
I'll just up OWNING you, as usual...
I thought slavery had been abolished. Apparently it's still alive and kicking in his neck of the woods...

Still going strong in London too it seems.
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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:47 pm 
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Slavery is a very present problem, even in Europe there are estimated to be 800,000 slaves. A quarter of those are people forced into the sex industry. With the low wages Eastern European workers charge on Dutch farms (picking strawberries and harvesting asparagus and stuff), there was even a trademark considered for slave-free Dutch products.
Making matters worse, most products that are from abroad are made in very poor working conditions: half a year after the horrible collapse of a textile factory in Bangladesh and our noses were put on the horrible ugly truth of low wages, long hours and unsanitary working conditions, people have already forgotten who pays for our cheap clothes and the freshly opened Primark here burst out its seams. Oh, and Wintech (unforgettable name for Phantasmagoria-conaisseurs), the Chinese company making screens for Apple with toxic matter where employees got horribly sick... It's not entirely slavery, but making people work 16 hours per day, often for months without pay, in death-inducing conditions, when their options are either karoshi or starvation, comes pretty darn close.

Daens is dead.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:53 pm 
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BBP wrote:
With the low wages Eastern European workers charge on Dutch farms (picking strawberries and harvesting asparagus and stuff)...

30 years ago (when I was 19ish), it was british kids doing the same picking in Dutch farms, living in tents, earning enough for a few spliffs and some grolsh.
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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:34 pm 
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DC Boogie wrote:
So what side do I choose, well-founded arguments or blowhard refusal to engage in a serious discussion, while maintaining that reasoning = manipulation? Gee, it's really hard... NOT.

brainpang wrote:
DB: Disqualifies self = LOSER
CAPUTH: WINNER by default


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Delusional

de·lu·sional (d-lzhn)
n.
1.
a. The act or process of deluding.
b. The state of being deluded.
2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.


Btw, I am NOT a blowhard. I back my shit up with either FACTS, LOGIC and/or EVIDENCE. While you idiots, on the other hand, do the exact opposite and perpetually throw ad hominems instead. Now get back on the sidelines, kids...

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:27 pm 
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FACTS and NAMECALLING is the name of your game, DB, and if you deny it you're the one who's delusional.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:45 pm 
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The Titanic wrote:
Btw, I am NOT a blowhard. I back my shit up with either FACTS, LOGIC and/or EVIDENCE. While you idiots, on the other hand, do the exact opposite and perpetually throw ad hominems instead. Now get back on the sidelines, kids...


And the band played on...

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:04 am 
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Caputh wrote:
The Titanic wrote:
Btw, I am NOT a blowhard. I back my shit up with either FACTS, LOGIC and/or EVIDENCE. While you idiots, on the other hand, do the exact opposite and perpetually throw ad hominems instead. Now get back on the sidelines, kids...


And the band played on...


Do you mean like this?::::::::::::::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnq5ktoApFA
(Monty Python Content!)

OR this:::
(I seriously busted a gut watching this):
YouTube Comment Reconstruction #1 - 'One Direction: What Makes You Beautiful'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxrWuE5qC5c

U2 is, of course, One Direction's chief Role Model.


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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:12 am 
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brainpang wrote:
Caputh wrote:
The Titanic wrote:
Btw, I am NOT a blowhard. I back my shit up with either FACTS, LOGIC and/or EVIDENCE. While you idiots, on the other hand, do the exact opposite and perpetually throw ad hominems instead. Now get back on the sidelines, kids...


And the band played on...


Do you mean like this?::::::::::::::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnq5ktoApFA
(Monty Python Content!)

OR this:::
(I seriously busted a gut watching this):
YouTube Comment Reconstruction #1 - 'One Direction: What Makes You Beautiful'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxrWuE5qC5c

U2 is, of course, One Direction's chief Role Model.


Actually, I meant more like this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOomXC5Uygs

But yours are funnier...

BTW "The Graf Spee" is correct. He does (sometimes) back his shit up. It still remains shit backed up by shit, however.

Did I say "shit"? I meant " a ship".

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:37 pm 
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DC Boogie wrote:
FACTS and NAMECALLING is the name of your game, DB, and if you deny it you're the one who's delusional.


FACTS are the name of my game. So at least you got ONE thing correct.

Maybe someday you idiots will FINALLY construct a convincing argument to the contrary? Until then, you'll still be resorting to the exact opposite and perpetually throwing ad hominems instead. Now get back on the sidelines, kids...

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:49 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
DC Boogie wrote:
FACTS and NAMECALLING is the name of your game, DB, and if you deny it you're the one who's delusional.


FACTS are the name of my game. So at least you got ONE thing correct.

Maybe someday you idiots will FINALLY construct a convincing argument to the contrary? Until then, you'll still be resorting to the exact opposite and perpetually throwing ad hominems instead. Now get back on the sidelines, kids...

Image

Oh my God he told the same joke twice. This guy is hysterical! Please keep up the amazing humor and debate winning! How clever. HERO!

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:54 am 
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That's basically because "The Colossus of Rhodes" believes that REPETITION = FACTS.

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