Zappa.com

The Official Frank Zappa Messageboards
It is currently Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:20 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:01 am
Posts: 1290
Location: Bordeaux, France
In a discussion of Joe's Garage someone mentionend Xenochrony. Most of us are in the know about the technique and it's history...for others there's this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenochrony

Give us your favorite examples of this technique as used on FZ albums.


Mine is "On the Bus". (and upon listening to Occam's Razor for the first time, I got a clear understanding of the technique in particular and FZ's genius on the whole.
"Nine Types of Industrial Pollution" was possibly made in this way also.
"Rubber Shirt" first explanation of the technique in the liner notes of SY.

Also, did Zappa use of Xenochrony on anything other than the "Ampex" guitar ?

_________________
"You can fly like a Penguin when you're dealing with Turkeys."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:55 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:29 pm
Posts: 1986
Location: south midlands, UK
Friendly little finger?
Also its interesting that he still edited lots of bits out of occams razor here and there for on the bus.
TT

_________________
and I know, I think
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 3:50 am
Posts: 69
All the xenochronous solos on that album were edited, Packard Goose sounds like 2 different solos, 1 following the other.
I think that SATLTSADW is the last album with studiosolos on there (I Come From Nowhere, both solos on Drowning Witch are senochronous) and that every solo on any album after that one is senochronous but I could be wrong.

Amazing that his style was always so flexible and fluid that he could mix anything with anything else and it would still sound like it couldn't be any other way.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:41 am
Posts: 457
Location: Centerville, Norway
My favourite xenochronous pieces will always be Friendly Little Finger and Rubber Shirt. I don't know if Canarsie uses xenochrony - if it does, it's another favourite. The pieces on Joe's Garage are effective because they showcase great guitar playing, but the technique per se is more fully expressed in something like Rubber Shirt IMHO.

_________________
If I'm not alone... I wonder if I've been asleep?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:55 am
Posts: 1269
unclemeat69 wrote:
All the xenochronous solos on that album were edited, Packard Goose sounds like 2 different solos, 1 following the other.
I think that SATLTSADW is the last album with studiosolos on there (I Come From Nowhere, both solos on Drowning Witch are senochronous) and that every solo on any album after that one is senochronous but I could be wrong.



No xenochrony in "Drowning Witch," they are just live solos with some additional keyboards and percussion overdubbed in the studio. The only possible xenochrony after that is "Truck Driver Divorce" (Them Or Us) although it isn't known whether Chad recorded the new drum track while listening to the guitar solo or not.

In fact "Packard Goose" is from at least three locations, Zurich, Wiesbaden and a third, unidentified solo.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 10:51 pm
Posts: 2351
Location: Europe
DC Boogie wrote:
My favourite xenochronous pieces will always be Friendly Little Finger and Rubber Shirt. I don't know if Canarsie uses xenochrony - if it does, it's another favourite. The pieces on Joe's Garage are effective because they showcase great guitar playing, but the technique per se is more fully expressed in something like Rubber Shirt IMHO.

I am quite sure that Canarsie is pure live. There are no overdubs on SUAPYG except for an instance of some keyboard in an outtro.

_________________
"Everybody in this room is wearing a uniform, and don't kid yourself" - FZ
http://www.myspace.com/kirnehness


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:40 pm
Posts: 6984
Location: South wales
HJ wrote:
DC Boogie wrote:
My favourite xenochronous pieces will always be Friendly Little Finger and Rubber Shirt. I don't know if Canarsie uses xenochrony - if it does, it's another favourite. The pieces on Joe's Garage are effective because they showcase great guitar playing, but the technique per se is more fully expressed in something like Rubber Shirt IMHO.

I am quite sure that Canarsie is pure live. There are no overdubs on SUAPYG except for an instance of some keyboard in an outtro.

There are overdub lyrics you only got too hear SY Album to understand that.and the last song say's recorded in Studio.

_________________
Arf you out of your fucking mind.Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:55 am
Posts: 1269
HJ wrote:
I am quite sure that Canarsie is pure live. There are no overdubs on SUAPYG except for an instance of some keyboard in an outtro.


You're thinking of Guitar. SUAPYG has a few studio cuts and overdubs.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:42 pm
Posts: 191
Location: Marion, Ohio
Theme from the 3rd Movement of Sinister Footwear.

The solo was recorded over a completely different backing track. Replaced it with a another backing track and had Steve Vai triple the solo, with both an acoustic and electric guitar track. Bells and a Bass Clarinet also double the solo.

_________________
Image
http://rodneyshifflet.bandcamp.com <---- check out my music!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:41 am
Posts: 457
Location: Centerville, Norway
pbuzby wrote:
HJ wrote:
I am quite sure that Canarsie is pure live. There are no overdubs on SUAPYG except for an instance of some keyboard in an outtro.

You're thinking of Guitar. SUAPYG has a few studio cuts and overdubs.

The booklet says that Canarsie has a basic track from HO 2/19/79 (engineered by Mick Glossop) with over-dubs engineered by Joe Chicarelli at Village Recorders (no date). I would think Cucurullo's electric sitar comes from the studio session. The effect of the over-dubs is rather alien and gives a family resemblance to the xenochronous pieces. And Patrick O' Hearn is credited on bass rather than Arthur Barrow, which suggests that there may have been an element of xenochrony in the construction of the track.

_________________
If I'm not alone... I wonder if I've been asleep?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:40 pm
Posts: 6984
Location: South wales
DC Boogie wrote:
pbuzby wrote:
HJ wrote:
I am quite sure that Canarsie is pure live. There are no overdubs on SUAPYG except for an instance of some keyboard in an outtro.

You're thinking of Guitar. SUAPYG has a few studio cuts and overdubs.


I would think Cucurullo's electric sitar comes from the studio session.

Thinking of Guitar Canarsie ain't even on there :|
Why Electric Sitar in studio :|

_________________
Arf you out of your fucking mind.Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:41 am
Posts: 457
Location: Centerville, Norway
What the fuck you talking about cleon i never mentioned Guitar you moron :) pbuzby did

You often find a sitar in studios, a bit impractical to bring on tour, but of course it's possible Cucurullo had one at the Odeon in 79. I'm sure someone here knows if he did.

Main points were that Canarsie was clearly overdubbed at Village Recorders and O'Hearn - who certainly didn't play on the basic track - is credited on bass.

_________________
If I'm not alone... I wonder if I've been asleep?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:20 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:29 pm
Posts: 1986
Location: south midlands, UK
Electric sitar - could be coral? It's guitar shaped / sized.
I think a coral is being played right at the end of catholic girls, and I think I've heard it on a couple of other tracks - not certain which at the moment - maybe on act 3
A mohan veena could also be transported round like a normal guitar - it sounds sitar-ish.
TT

_________________
and I know, I think
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:55 am
Posts: 1269
Warren didn't have a sitar live with Zappa although Steve Vai would get one for the 81 tour. In fact the opening of "Treacherous Cretins" with the acoustic guitar and sitar is from the studio. Live they played the backing vamp on electric guitars in the 79 shows.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:40 pm
Posts: 6984
Location: South wales
deuce wrote:
Electric sitar - could be coral? It's guitar shaped / sized.
I think a coral is being played right at the end of catholic girls, and I think I've heard it on a couple of other tracks - not certain which at the moment - maybe on act 3
A mohan veena could also be transported round like a normal guitar - it sounds sitar-ish.
TT
I would Guess Coral as Vai is seen using them with FZ on MTV 81.

_________________
Arf you out of your fucking mind.Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:40 pm
Posts: 6984
Location: South wales
pbuzby wrote:
Warren didn't have a sitar live with Zappa although Steve Vai would get one for the 81 tour. In fact the opening of "Treacherous Cretins" with the acoustic guitar and sitar is from the studio. Live they played the backing vamp on electric guitars in the 79 shows.

Treacherous Cretins is a another song that i thought is not all live,FZ Acoustic Live No,Semi Acoustic yes.

_________________
Arf you out of your fucking mind.Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:18 pm
Posts: 3442
Location: Between the Badges
I've never watched Parks & Recreation, but I heard an interview with Amy Poehler recently and they played this clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZjV_mrHyWs

Jazz + Jazz = Jazz, hahaha, research shows that this forum loves xenochrony (and jazz)

_________________
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:04 pm
Posts: 2923
Location: Chicago, sort of.
I've never watched that show either. That was funny.

_________________
Everytime we picked a booger we'd flip it on this one winduh. Every night we'd contribute, 2, 3, 4 boogers. We had to use a putty knife, man, to get them damn things off the winduh. There was some goober ones that weren't even hard...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 2466
Inca Roads worked out nicely. Xenochrony is a cool idea but nothing beats real musicians communicating in real time.

My favorite solo on JG is the one that did not use the xenochrony trick. WIEH. Makes sense to me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:18 pm
Posts: 3442
Location: Between the Badges
downer mydnyte wrote:
Inca Roads worked out nicely. Xenochrony is a cool idea but nothing beats real musicians communicating in real time.

My favorite solo on JG is the one that did not use the xenochrony trick. WIEH. Makes sense to me.


I disagree with all of that, except the part of Inca working out nicely. Oh, well.

_________________
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:48 pm
Posts: 21478
Location: Somewhere in time
:smoke:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 2466
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
Inca Roads worked out nicely. Xenochrony is a cool idea but nothing beats real musicians communicating in real time.

My favorite solo on JG is the one that did not use the xenochrony trick. WIEH. Makes sense to me.


I disagree with all of that, except the part of Inca working out nicely. Oh, well.


Yo mama







worked out nicely as well.

It all sounds pretty good to me on JG. It's a cool concept.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:18 pm
Posts: 3442
Location: Between the Badges
downer mydnyte wrote:
...nothing beats real musicians communicating in real time.
...

This is the part that makes my stomach turn. Most people will agree with that statement without a second thought. I find it to be invalid and in no way superior to a solo artist performance. Why are two composers/performers better than one?

_________________
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Don't Be Stupid Unless You Want To


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:48 pm
Posts: 21478
Location: Somewhere in time
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
...nothing beats real musicians communicating in real time.
...

This is the part that makes my stomach turn. Most people will agree with that statement without a second thought. I find it to be invalid and in no way superior to a solo artist performance. Why are two composers/performers better than one?


It's the more is better concept, which I agree is not necessarily true…it’s like the Military budget…why pay a billion dollars for one when you can pay twice as much for two… :smoke:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: XENOCHRONY
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 2466
Plook wrote:
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
...nothing beats real musicians communicating in real time.
...

This is the part that makes my stomach turn. Most people will agree with that statement without a second thought. I find it to be invalid and in no way superior to a solo artist performance. Why are two composers/performers better than one?


It's the more is better concept, which I agree is not necessarily true…it’s like the Military budget…why pay a billion dollars for one when you can pay twice as much for two… :smoke:

I was wrong in my wordage there. I generally prefer the solos Zappa plays in real time. Sometimes the cut and paste method sounds better. I didn't mean to say a solo performance was any less valid than a duet or group performance. I just meant that I generally like the solos that are not cut and pasted. Not always. Sorry to upset your stomach. Certainly a solo performance can be as good as two or more musicians playing together. And certainly the xenochrony method can improve on a solo in some cases.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Exabot [Bot] and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group