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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:48 am 
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BP, the owners are very real, but if nothing is missing, nothing was stolen. The alleged lost of income for the unauthorized copying of a phonogram could be an onus in copyright but still, I am sure US law is very accurate to typify the act of stealing.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:05 am 
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Phlakaton wrote:
I had a thought - what if all the people who haven't cancelled their preorder get some kind of cool bonus in the shipment. Har har.


I think those that did cancel should get a bonus for not putting up with bullshit :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:06 am 
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brainpang wrote:
Mr_Heartbreak wrote:

How you are able to extrapolate that from my post is beyond me. Actually, I am a collector, and I do have many, many obscurities in my rather large collection. I don't know what you are buying, but if you think $21.12 is an average price for a new CD, I have some Florida real estate you might be interested in. :mrgreen:

I don't actually spend a lot on shitty downloads, but I do buy CDs sometimes. I just bought a double CD set for $16 and a 6-CD set for $35. These are nationally known acts. Of course, I am willing to spend more on Frank. However, if it doesn't actually get shipped...


It was easy to extrapolate. If you are into releases by boutique outfits, like the zft, then you would know what I am talking about. Do tell, what are the releases you cite above? I could list loads of pricey items as well as cheap ones, too. That's meaningless. Need to narrow it down.

Did you score a copy of the Jeff Simmons 2cd set of Lucille/Naked? About 70 minutes of music (plus some unrelated bonus stuff that I won't count). Priced around 26.00 plus ship.

ps obscure/limited things are often priced high to combat speculators. I think that is a good thing.


stop saying frank is boutique. He is one of the most popular musicians in history. A guy like Joseph Arthur is boutique. He releases his albums for free.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:26 am 
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NewJPage wrote:
stop saying frank is boutique. He is one of the most popular musicians in history. A guy like Joseph Arthur is boutique. He releases his albums for free.


What are you basing "popular" on?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:21 am 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
What are you basing "popular" on?


The percentage of people on this forum that listen to Zappa of course silly.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:06 am 
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duchamp wrote:
calvin2hikers wrote:
What are you basing "popular" on?


The percentage of people on this forum that listen to Zappa of course silly.


Oh, okay. I knew it couldn't be album sales. Mystery solved!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:32 am 
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NewJPage wrote:
stop saying frank is boutique. He is one of the most popular musicians in history.


I love Frank and his music emphatically but I too have a problem with what you're saying here... I would disagree whole-heartedly.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:41 am 
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PenguinInBondage wrote:
NewJPage wrote:
stop saying frank is boutique. He is one of the most popular musicians in history.


I love Frank and his music emphatically but I too have a problem with what you're saying here... I would disagree whole-heartedly.


I'm speaking in relative terms. A man that sold over 40 million albums is popular. Sure, he isn't the Beatles or Zeppelin, but he was not some obscure underground act. In the grand scheme of things, he was huge. It may be more fun to pretend that Zappa fans are part of some secret society, but there are millions of us.

To my larger point, Frank's success or supposed lack-there-of should not be how we judge the current system for archival releases. ACTUAL "boutique" or "obscure" artists know how to release music. Contemporary to him artists know how to release music. ZFT does not know how to release music. The RBP delay is, most likely, some manufacturer thing. Shit happens. 2 months ago they could have said "there is a delay with production, blah blah blah" and that would cover it. It is not a giant deal to me overall. I'll get it at some point. Whatever.

The bigger issue is that whenever ZFT speaks on the issue of sales or the music buying public, they complain that they don't sell anything, that everyone steals Frank's music, and that they are too broke to function. But when they DO get around to releasing something, all we get is some cryptic sentence-long blurb and are expected to plunk down $ for an unknown product. They COULD create buzz. They could give people setlists, dates, ya know, INFORMATION. They COULD film a minute long "behind the scenes" video that would take about 3 minutes of effort to produce and put on the website. Personally I don't give a shit if Zappa attracts new fans, but ZFT does. If they do, and they want David Fricke to talk about a new release on rolling stone, they might want to give him something to write about.


Last edited by NewJPage on Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:55 am 
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bou·tique
bo͞oˈtēk/
noun
noun: boutique; plural noun: boutiques

1.
a small store selling fashionable clothes or accessories.
2.
a business that serves a sophisticated or specialized clientele.

The artist is not boutique, but the various labels issued by the ZFT, surely are.

Frank may have millions of fans, but that doesn't mean they buy the archival releases.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:02 pm 
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NewJPage wrote:
I'm speaking in relative terms. A man that sold over 40 million albums is popular. Sure, he isn't the Beatles or Zeppelin, but he was not some obscure underground act. In the grand scheme of things, he was huge. It may be more fun to pretend that Zappa fans are part of some secret society, but there are millions of us.


My beef isn't that you said he was popular. My beef is that you said he is one of the most popular. But don't take it personally, I have many beefs and this is one of the least grandiose beefs I currently possess. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:04 pm 
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NewJPage wrote:
Personally I don't give a shit if Zappa attracts new fans, but ZFT does.


I think you may be wrong about this. I'd prefer to believe they are not as interested in trying to promote and attract new fans. If I am incorrect, then I must choose to believe that they are deeply stupid.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:08 pm 
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PenguinInBondage wrote:
NewJPage wrote:
I'm speaking in relative terms. A man that sold over 40 million albums is popular. Sure, he isn't the Beatles or Zeppelin, but he was not some obscure underground act. In the grand scheme of things, he was huge. It may be more fun to pretend that Zappa fans are part of some secret society, but there are millions of us.


My beef isn't that you said he was popular. My beef is that you said he is one of the most popular. But don't take it personally, I have many beefs and this is one of the least grandiose beefs I currently possess. :mrgreen:


OK OK, fair enough. I have not taken it personally and I don't have any ACTUAL beef here either. Just causing trouble :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:09 pm 
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NewJPage wrote:
OK OK, fair enough. I have not taken it personally and I don't have any ACTUAL beef here either. Just causing trouble :mrgreen:


Haven't you been told that a life in music can lead to BIG TROUBLE??? :mrgreen:
Cheers, NewJPage, cheers....

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:11 pm 
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duchamp wrote:
NewJPage wrote:
Personally I don't give a shit if Zappa attracts new fans, but ZFT does.


I think you may be wrong about this. I'd prefer to believe they are not as interested in trying to promote and attract new fans. If I am incorrect, then I must choose to believe that they are deeply stupid.


HA! You could be right actually. Maybe they don't want any new fans because they know we are all insane people


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:12 pm 
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PenguinInBondage wrote:
NewJPage wrote:
OK OK, fair enough. I have not taken it personally and I don't have any ACTUAL beef here either. Just causing trouble :mrgreen:


Haven't you been told that a life in music can lead to BIG TROUBLE??? :mrgreen:
Cheers, NewJPage, cheers....


Cheers back, fellow Illinoisian


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:39 pm 
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I thought the whole idea of ZPZ tours was to get Frank's music out there and to promote the music to new and younger audiences. Dweezil sure does say it a lot and I have taken my son to a few shows because its available to hear. He also appreciates and loves the music now too. I take more credit for that being a long standing devoted fan though.

I agree with most of the last comments... coulda shoulda woulda... :(

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:10 pm 
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NewJPage wrote:
PenguinInBondage wrote:
NewJPage wrote:
stop saying frank is boutique. He is one of the most popular musicians in history.


I love Frank and his music emphatically but I too have a problem with what you're saying here... I would disagree whole-heartedly.


I'm speaking in relative terms. A man that sold over 40 million albums is popular. Sure, he isn't the Beatles or Zeppelin, but he was not some obscure underground act. In the grand scheme of things, he was huge. It may be more fun to pretend that Zappa fans are part of some secret society, but there are millions of us.

To my larger point, Frank's success or supposed lack-there-of should not be how we judge the current system for archival releases. ACTUAL "boutique" or "obscure" artists know how to release music. Contemporary to him artists know how to release music. ZFT does not know how to release music. The RBP delay is, most likely, some manufacturer thing. Shit happens. 2 months ago they could have said "there is a delay with production, blah blah blah" and that would cover it. It is not a giant deal to me overall. I'll get it at some point. Whatever.

The bigger issue is that whenever ZFT speaks on the issue of sales or the music buying public, they complain that they don't sell anything, that everyone steals Frank's music, and that they are too broke to function. But when they DO get around to releasing something, all we get is some cryptic sentence-long blurb are are expected to plunk down $ for an unknown product. They COULD create buzz. They could give people setlists, dates, ya know, INFORMATION. They COULD film a minute long "behind the scenes" video that would take about 3 minutes of effort to produce and put on the website. Personally I don't give a shit if Zappa attracts new fans, but ZFT does. If they do, and they want David Fricke to talk about a new release on rolling stone, they might want to give him something to write about.


I see below (actually, ABOVE) that you are just taking a piss, which is fine, but you are SO wrong on almost every count! How you possess this mystery knowledge to form these views is astounding, 'cause really only the zft and their accountants know. Lets get serious: you just want the shit cheap, right?
Aaaaaah!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:40 pm 
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brainpang wrote:
NewJPage wrote:
PenguinInBondage wrote:

I love Frank and his music emphatically but I too have a problem with what you're saying here... I would disagree whole-heartedly.


I'm speaking in relative terms. A man that sold over 40 million albums is popular. Sure, he isn't the Beatles or Zeppelin, but he was not some obscure underground act. In the grand scheme of things, he was huge. It may be more fun to pretend that Zappa fans are part of some secret society, but there are millions of us.

To my larger point, Frank's success or supposed lack-there-of should not be how we judge the current system for archival releases. ACTUAL "boutique" or "obscure" artists know how to release music. Contemporary to him artists know how to release music. ZFT does not know how to release music. The RBP delay is, most likely, some manufacturer thing. Shit happens. 2 months ago they could have said "there is a delay with production, blah blah blah" and that would cover it. It is not a giant deal to me overall. I'll get it at some point. Whatever.

The bigger issue is that whenever ZFT speaks on the issue of sales or the music buying public, they complain that they don't sell anything, that everyone steals Frank's music, and that they are too broke to function. But when they DO get around to releasing something, all we get is some cryptic sentence-long blurb and are expected to plunk down $ for an unknown product. They COULD create buzz. They could give people setlists, dates, ya know, INFORMATION. They COULD film a minute long "behind the scenes" video that would take about 3 minutes of effort to produce and put on the website. Personally I don't give a shit if Zappa attracts new fans, but ZFT does. If they do, and they want David Fricke to talk about a new release on rolling stone, they might want to give him something to write about.


I see below (actually, ABOVE) that you are just taking a piss, which is fine, but you are SO wrong on almost every count! How you possess this mystery knowledge to form these views is astounding, 'cause really only the zft and their accountants know. Lets get serious: you just want the shit cheap, right?
Aaaaaah!


I never said i was just taking a piss. I just said I don't actually care. Not sure where I am "SO wrong" in any of my above statement, and not sure what ZFT accountants have to do with ZFT "marketing"


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:12 pm 
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NewJPage wrote:
PenguinInBondage wrote:
NewJPage wrote:
stop saying frank is boutique. He is one of the most popular musicians in history.


I love Frank and his music emphatically but I too have a problem with what you're saying here... I would disagree whole-heartedly.


ACTUAL "boutique" or "obscure" artists know how to release music. Contemporary to him artists know how to release music. ZFT does not know how to release music. The RBP delay is, most likely, some manufacturer thing. Shit happens. 2 months ago they could have said "there is a delay with production, blah blah blah" and that would cover it. It is not a giant deal to me overall. I'll get it at some point. Whatever.

The bigger issue is that whenever ZFT speaks on the issue of sales or the music buying public, they complain that they don't sell anything, that everyone steals Frank's music, and that they are too broke to function. But when they DO get around to releasing something, all we get is some cryptic sentence-long blurb and are expected to plunk down $ for an unknown product. They COULD create buzz. They could give people setlists, dates, ya know, INFORMATION. They COULD film a minute long "behind the scenes" video that would take about 3 minutes of effort to produce and put on the website.


This pretty much covers any point I would want to make about this situation. Sure, I'll buy it at some point (possibly from the ZFT, possibly "gently used" from someone selling it at a discount), but I will never put myself through the stress of a pre-order with this company again. And that makes me sad, because they do represent Frank, who I actually liked.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:32 pm 
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Mr_Heartbreak wrote:

This pretty much covers any point I would want to make about this situation. Sure, I'll buy it at some point (possibly from the ZFT, possibly "gently used" from someone selling it at a discount), but I will never put myself through the stress of a pre-order with this company again. And that makes me sad, because they do represent Frank, who I actually liked.


Stress? Stress over the release of a music product? When was the last time you saw a vagina? The day you were born? Get a life man.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:54 pm 
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The best thing I ever did as a Zappa fan was to ignore everything the ZFT say and do. If I need to hear something- I'll hear it.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:02 pm 
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Phlakaton wrote:
I had a thought - what if all the people who haven't cancelled their preorder get some kind of cool bonus in the shipment. Har har.

Like an actual disc inside the jewel case.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:41 pm 
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BillyDaMt wrote:
Phlakaton wrote:
I had a thought - what if all the people who haven't cancelled their preorder get some kind of cool bonus in the shipment. Har har.

Like an actual disc inside the jewel case.


Ya... something like that. haha

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:08 am 
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This was sorta eye opening when it appeared in June, 2010.
Are things worse now?

Cult rock band Melvins hit pop charts after 26 years
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/ ... UR20100609

"It achieved this feat by selling just 2,809 copies of "The Bride Screamed Murder,"

to be #200.

Sell another 2,000 and they are in the top 100.

PS so my GUESS as to what a Zappa archive release sells, depending on what it is, would be:
5,000 copies over 5 to 10 years, maybe? And that spending money on promotion would produce negligible additional sales. And that the ZFT does better financially keeping it boutique, not necessary to share the profits with Amazon, etcetera.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:47 am 
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brainpang wrote:
This was sorta eye opening when it appeared in June, 2010.
Are things worse now?

Cult rock band Melvins hit pop charts after 26 years
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/ ... UR20100609

"It achieved this feat by selling just 2,809 copies of "The Bride Screamed Murder,"

to be #200.

Sell another 2,000 and they are in the top 100.

PS so my GUESS as to what a Zappa archive release sells, depending on what it is, would be:
5,000 copies over 5 to 10 years, maybe? And that spending money on promotion would produce negligible additional sales. And that the ZFT does better financially keeping it boutique, not necessary to share the profits with Amazon, etcetera.


I'm not sure the ZFT releases would even qualify for whatever reason. The Dead release 4 shows a year, limited to 13,000 copies, and they all sell out immediately. Those never show up on Billboard. Not sure of the specifics on how that works, but the only promotion the Dead do is on their website...they promote products they are selling. ZFT does not. Because the Dead do this, releases are talked about in the media. Free promotion.


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