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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:11 am 
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ursinator wrote:
Maybe FZ as (so called) serious composer is entirely overrated? Did he really get beyond copying his own heroes in modern music? Epigonism, perfectly executed, but nothing more? Is THE PERFECT STRANGER album great music simply cause a BIG NAME appears on the album cover?


That is a good question. For what it's worth, some of these classical folks like conductor Kent Nagano were impressed that Zappa's scores featured a lot of complexity, comparable to the likes of other classical composers (Stravinsky, Nancarrow, etc). Perhaps it's not merely epigonism, but also a display of some kind of talent that FZ was able to write really hard charts to play? Lest we forget also that FZ was writing art music before he even had written his first pop song. There could be some polymath-like talent involved in Zappa's ability to write art music, as derivative of Varese, Stravinsky, Webern et al it may had appeared.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:15 am 
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Jeez, when its on rotation, I really enjoy it. Its a great funk rock (even soul) album by anyone elses standards. I think you're overthinking it, maybe even a bit pompous about it - a "good starter album", like I should use it to try to get my kids off x-factor? Thats just insulting! Horses for courses maybe - I love funk, rock, and most styles FZ does, but I wouldn't say one style is less valid than another. Commercial? Why not - plenty of reward was due for the previous years work.
Over produced? sounds just right to me. You can't really judge a studio album by its later live versions - sometimes songs develop into better songs. There's a couple of track on it I'm not gone on e.g. 50/50, but even DH has its good parts (e.g. when the ikettes come in).
I guess I have a problem with the overrated word. FZ is generally underrated - hence a handful of us here compared to the millions of ledzep / metallica / bieber etc fans you'd find elsewhere.
Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
deuce wrote:
wakawazooinregalia' wrote:
The most overrated Zappa album is Overnite Sensation. Great starter album, but far from his best.

Your talking bollocks. IMO.
TT

wakawazooinregalia' wrote:
I can name you 10 better zappa albums (Apostrophe included)


I have to agree with WWiR here. Here's my take: Camarillo pretty good for this more mainstream rock kind of idiom, "I'm the Slime" good, but SNL Live version is the definitive version of it, "Dirty Love" is where the album begins to lose me, but even that song has a definitive live version: that with Bianca Odin on lead vocals. "Fifty Fifty" good, at least as far as solos go and it's a good piece as a live instrumental. "Zomby Woof", the only song that's best on O-NS, I loathe the 80s arrangements of it. "Dinah Moe Humm" doesn't have any good version of it at all, worst song indeed. "Montana" improved quite a bit in terms of vocals when Napoleon was hired and is also a proof that FZ really overproduced the album, as the instrumentation is a bit too..."processed" compared to how the Feb-Sep '73 band played the song live.

Thank god "Road Tapes 2" is finally out featuring the MOI with JLP as they truly were, not how FZ only used the band as a backdrop for his more commercialised songs designed to appeal to the contemporary adolescent rock audience.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:53 am 
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deuce wrote:
Jeez, when its on rotation, I really enjoy it. Its a great funk rock (even soul) album by anyone elses standards. I think you're overthinking it, maybe even a bit pompous about it - a "good starter album", like I should use it to try to get my kids off x-factor? Thats just insulting! Horses for courses maybe - I love funk, rock, and most styles FZ does, but I wouldn't say one style is less valid than another. Commercial? Why not - plenty of reward was due for the previous years work.
Over produced? sounds just right to me. You can't really judge a studio album by its later live versions - sometimes songs develop into better songs. There's a couple of track on it I'm not gone on e.g. 50/50, but even DH has its good parts (e.g. when the ikettes come in).
I guess I have a problem with the overrated word. FZ is generally underrated - hence a handful of us here compared to the millions of ledzep / metallica / bieber etc fans you'd find elsewhere.

Alright, it's underrated in general, because Zappa is underrated. But albums like Burnt Weeny Sandwich or Waka/Jawaka don't get any recognition at all, even in Zappa fans comunity. So, I say Overnite Sensation is the less underrated (people that know Frank well also say it's from his best, while it's certainly inferior to his brother, Apostrophe).
Hot Rats at least diserves to be so elogiated in my opinion, because of tunes like Little Umbrellas or The Gumbo Variations.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:13 pm 
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deuce wrote:
a "good starter album", like I should use it to try to get my kids off x-factor?


More power to you and your children - just be prepared to explain the lyrics of "Dinah Moe Humm" to them, or for that matter, "Bobby Brown" if you go for Sheik Yerbouti in its stead. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:31 pm 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
deuce wrote:
a "good starter album", like I should use it to try to get my kids off x-factor?


More power to you and your children - just be prepared to explain the lyrics of "Dinah Moe Humm" to them, or for that matter, "Bobby Brown" if you go for Sheik Yerbouti in its stead. ;)

You have nothing to fear my son! :smoke:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:42 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
deuce wrote:
a "good starter album", like I should use it to try to get my kids off x-factor?

More power to you and your children - just be prepared to explain the lyrics of "Dinah Moe Humm" to them, or for that matter, "Bobby Brown" if you go for Sheik Yerbouti in its stead. ;)

I do play zappa a lot at them, but I fast-forward some explicit parts (or dont play whole tracks) and they are OK with that. DMH is one I wouldn't play, nor dirty love, or bobby brown, brown shoes, ms pinky, some joes garage etc. And I don't mind them hearing the words fuck or sex, but not bitch.
As for overnite sensation, Ralphs drumming is great all through - but if vinnie was playing on it, it would be a lot WORSE. If Ralph, Terry or even Chad replaced ALL of vinnies parts I'd be a happy man. Vinnie may be a technically great drummer, but his contributions are entirely overrated. IMO.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:50 pm 
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ursinator wrote:
Maybe FZ as (so called) serious composer is entirely overrated? Did he really get beyond copying his own heroes in modern music? Epigonism, perfectly executed, but nothing more? Is THE PERFECT STRANGER album great music simply cause a BIG NAME appears on the album cover?


FZ did really get beyound copying his own heroes in contemporary classical, if we talk about his Synclavier compositions - which also are, in this sense, more "serious" than his orchestral work. FZ as the "serious composer" is then more like underrated - because his "serious" side is widely associated more with his orchestral work, which was obviously weaker.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:16 pm 
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brunofulax wrote:
ursinator wrote:
Maybe FZ as (so called) serious composer is entirely overrated? Did he really get beyond copying his own heroes in modern music? Epigonism, perfectly executed, but nothing more? Is THE PERFECT STRANGER album great music simply cause a BIG NAME appears on the album cover?


FZ did really get beyound copying his own heroes in contemporary classical, if we talk about his Synclavier compositions - which also are, in this sense, more "serious" than his orchestral work. FZ as the "serious composer" is then more like underrated - because his "serious" side is widely associated more with his orchestral work, which was obviously weaker.

Well, I really like Orchestral Favorites, The Perfect Stranger and The Yellow Shark, as his synclavier works in CPIII. Also, the orchestral versions of his synclavier compositions are actually better than the original ones IMO(like The Girl In The Magnesium Dress). And he has also weak material from synclavier(most of Francesco is kinda weak).
I like both efforts, and I think they're uncomparable to each other, for me they're not overrated.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:48 am 
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Orchestral Favorites and LSO albums deserve merit at least because of technological innovations, OF might be very well the first album for an "amplified" orchestra (and is definitely more rock-orientated than other classical albums), whereas LSO was definitely the first digitally recorded symphony orchestra album. Even if FZ was merely a gifted polymath capable of creating complicated scores indebted to his classical heroes, he was most certainly a visionary under his producer hat.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:54 am 
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deuce wrote:
Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
deuce wrote:
a "good starter album", like I should use it to try to get my kids off x-factor?

More power to you and your children - just be prepared to explain the lyrics of "Dinah Moe Humm" to them, or for that matter, "Bobby Brown" if you go for Sheik Yerbouti in its stead. ;)

I do play zappa a lot at them, but I fast-forward some explicit parts (or dont play whole tracks) and they are OK with that. DMH is one I wouldn't play, nor dirty love, or bobby brown, brown shoes, ms pinky, some joes garage etc. And I don't mind them hearing the words fuck or sex, but not bitch.
As for overnite sensation, Ralphs drumming is great all through - but if vinnie was playing on it, it would be a lot WORSE. If Ralph, Terry or even Chad replaced ALL of vinnies parts I'd be a happy man. Vinnie may be a technically great drummer, but his contributions are entirely overrated. IMO.
TT


Yikes. I'll just go ahead and disagree on the Vinnie comments. haha. My son has his favorite Zappa songs - Broken Hearts are for Assholes being one of his favs. If he has a question about anything - I answer it. No holding back with my boys.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:00 pm 
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I'd be willing to agree on Overnite Sensation. Camarillo Brillo is a catchy song, but way too repetitive in my opinion, without any real development. Fifty Fifty and Zombie Woof never really did it for me, and Dinah-Moe Hum is funny and amusing, but I never go why people got so stoked about it.

Funny enough, the only songs I really like on that album are the ones on Strictly Commercial. I'm The Slime,, Dirty Love (The live version with Bianca does blow this one out of the water though), and Montana.

I never really got the hype on the 80s studio albums. I hear a lot of love for You Are What You Is, and I could really never get into that one.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:18 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:34 pm 
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frogfog wrote:
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Are you telling me that THIS is overrated? Man! Every f***ing composition on the album is from his finest!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:39 pm 
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Phlakaton wrote:
Yikes. I'll just go ahead and disagree on the Vinnie comments. haha. My son has his favorite Zappa songs - Broken Hearts are for Assholes being one of his favs. If he has a question about anything - I answer it. No holding back with my boys.


I have to disagree with the Vinnie comments as well. My son listens to it all too, and I answer any questions he has. "Broken Hearts" & "Baby Snakes" are some of his favorites. One of his favorite albums is actually Broadway The Hard Way. And, he really likes "Help, I'm A Rock".


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:31 pm 
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jaypfunk wrote:
Frank Zappa and the term overrated NEVER belong in the same sentence.

I absolutely agree. Zappa's worst can blow away most "bests" IMHO

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:48 pm 
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wakawazooinregalia' wrote:
brunofulax wrote:
ursinator wrote:
Maybe FZ as (so called) serious composer is entirely overrated? Did he really get beyond copying his own heroes in modern music? Epigonism, perfectly executed, but nothing more? Is THE PERFECT STRANGER album great music simply cause a BIG NAME appears on the album cover?


FZ did really get beyound copying his own heroes in contemporary classical, if we talk about his Synclavier compositions - which also are, in this sense, more "serious" than his orchestral work. FZ as the "serious composer" is then more like underrated - because his "serious" side is widely associated more with his orchestral work, which was obviously weaker.

Well, I really like Orchestral Favorites, The Perfect Stranger and The Yellow Shark, as his synclavier works in CPIII. Also, the orchestral versions of his synclavier compositions are actually better than the original ones IMO(like The Girl In The Magnesium Dress). And he has also weak material from synclavier(most of Francesco is kinda weak).
I like both efforts, and I think they're uncomparable to each other, for me they're not overrated.


This. I'm actually of the opinion his orchestral stuff is Zappa at his most "serious", Yellow Shark in particular.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:40 am 
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FREAK OUT! And maybe Joe's Garage. I LOVE these albums but they are often held as the second coming of Christ. I included Joe's Garage due to it being the one that even casual fans hold up as a sort of best of the 70's. I prefer ACT 3 to the first 2.

I love it though, it's a way of life.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:50 am 
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Yeah, every single list of top 10 Zappa albums out of this forum has Freak Out on the top 3.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:04 am 
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It's a good listen but probably wouldn't make my top 15.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:23 am 
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Agree.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:45 am 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
I prefer ACT 3 to the first 2.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:11 am 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
FREAK OUT! And maybe Joe's Garage. I LOVE these albums but they are often held as the second coming of Christ. I included Joe's Garage due to it being the one that even casual fans hold up as a sort of best of the 70's. I prefer ACT 3 to the first 2.

I love it though, it's a way of life.


I always thought Freak Out ! is a good album, but nothing special compared to other groundbreaking albums from the 60's. I changed my mind when MOFO (4 CD box) appeared. Freak Out ! is a masterpiece in my humble opinion. Along with Lumpy/Money MOFO is the best the ZFT has released so far. I hope they will keep on the excellent work. Now where's the Uncle Meat Box ?

By the way I don't think there are any overrated Zappa albums. He was quite popular, but on the other hand he was an outsider in music business. He said it himself again and again.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:33 pm 
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My_Name_Is_Fritz wrote:
Freak Out ! is a masterpiece in my humble opinion.

Yes, but Zappa album and masterpiece are synonyms. :wink:

------------------------------------------------------

My_Name_Is_Fritz wrote:
Now where's the Uncle Meat Box ?

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In a Jar. :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:36 am 
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Sticking close to the definition of overrated, I gotta say Joe's Garage. Act 1 in particular. It's often brought up by casual fans. Of course I love it, but it doesn't get that much play from me these days. When I'd work the bar and play music from my iPud these 1990's Deadheadish Phishhead-type Ween-ophiles (ummm all male, mind you) would request Catholic Girls, Crew Slut and Joes Garage from me and I'd have to say sorry I don't have it, but how bout Boogie For Berkeley?

Hmmm...in a way Joes Garage was a kind of later period party album for many in the way that Fillmore East and Just Another Band was for an earlier group of young men. I certainly never hear post-Joe's albums mentioned by anyone unless they're aficionados, except for Valley Girl of course.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:47 am 
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JG1 I is off rotation, not because I don't rate it, but because I don't want to get sick of it.
So is zoot / WOIFTM / and absolutely free - i.e. the first albums I got as a teenager.
BUT they'll all get played for zappadan.
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